Opportunity Made Podcast Transcript, Episode 5

James Campbell, The Next Generation of Accessibility

[00:00:00] Katherine: Did this experience ever make you angry?

[00:00:02] James: Yeah. All the time. All the time. It's, it's a natural emotion of grief and my body died. So I had to grieve my own death, my old life, I had to grieve all of that. My old relationships that didn't work out. I had to grieve everything at the same time. So anger comes with a lot of that. Are there things I should have done differently? Yeah. Are there things I wish other people did differently? Yeah.

[00:00:32] A lot of that provides a of sense of anger and anger is a very consuming emotion. It really is. But, um, you really have to give yourself grace and feel every emotion you can. I think a lot of people, especially men like to suppress their emotions, but I think you have to feel everything to really understand what's going on. And anger is one of those emotions. As long as it's not taken out on someone else, it can be a really helpful healer.

[00:01:07] Katherine: [music]

[00:01:07] Hello, everybody, and welcome to Opportunity Made, the podcast that is based upon the idea that we can make new opportunities for ourselves and others on a regular basis, if we are willing to take chances, be intentional in our actions and invest deeply in our own lives. I am your host, Katherine Lewis.

[00:01:29] I'm going to give an audio description of myself. I am a European American woman with short blonde hair that's tied back. I am wearing a beige hoodie and a jean jacket, and there is a white ball behind me.

[00:01:43] Today I have a special guest, James Campbell, a 2022 graduate from the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado in Boulder.

[00:01:53] We hope that you'll follow us along throughout this episode with its twists and turns as we go through the details of his recent journey with accessibility.

[00:02:02] Welcome James!

[00:02:03] James: Hey, thank you, Katherine. I'm very excited to be here. I'll give an audio description of myself. I'm a white male with dirty blonde hair, blue eyes and I'm wearing a white shirt with a cupboard in the background.

[00:02:17] Katherine: James tell me something that's not on your LinkedIn profile.

[00:02:22] James: I love food. It's a huge passion of mine. Love to eat. I really enjoy cooking, everything that goes into it. Your body is a well oiled machine. You get in what you put out and I have a huge passion for food.

[00:02:35] Katherine: Is there a certain type of cuisine that you like?

[00:02:39] James: Italian and Mexican. My family's Italian, so I've always grown up with great food.

[00:02:46] Katherine: I hear that you are a fisherman and so what is your favorite kind of fish to catch? And since you love food, what do you put it with?

[00:02:56] James: I like to catch Bass. I think Bass is my favorite fish to catch in Colorado. They fight hard and they're beautiful fish and super easy to unhook. Eating wise, I'd say Walleye is the best and you fry it with some fish tacos. I think it's really good.

[00:03:12] Katherine: Dogs or cats?

[00:03:14] James: Dogs for sure.

[00:03:16] Katherine: And you have a couple, right?

[00:03:18] James: Yes. I have a Brussels Griffon. And a teacup Chiweenie, so half Dodson and half Chihuahua. Very adorable. Both of them.

[00:03:33] Katherine: That is so cute. What are their names?

[00:03:33] James: My first dog's name, the Brussels Griffon, her name is Taser because she darts around the yard and then the other one's name is Fig cuz she's a very small dog.

[00:03:45] Katherine: Kind of like a Fig Newton, huh?

[00:03:48] James: Yes, exactly.

[00:03:49] Katherine: That's so cute. Well, James, today we wanna talk about the next generation of accessibility and as we get started here, I would love for you to share your story about yourself. You are a recent graduate and you're also a person with a disability. Can you share more? Just who are you, your background? Where do you come from?

[00:04:13] James: I was born and raised in Fort Collins, Colorado. I played every single sport growing up. So I was a huge athlete and I love sports to this day. I studied Business Operations Management and Marketing, which I have a huge passion for. September 20th, 2020, I had a Spinal Stroke and became a quadriplegic paralyzed from the neck down.

[00:04:41] Unfortunate, but I'm still here to talk about it, which is kind of a beautiful thing. I love to fish. I have a huge passion for the game of football. I like being outdoors, that's me kind of in a nutshell.

[00:04:55] Katherine: What is a Spinal Stroke?

[00:04:57] James: It's called Spinal Stroke. It's an Ischemic Stroke. So it's where kind of a blood vessel pops and they're usually spontaneous. I also had some hypotension where my neck was kinked over for 18 hours. That caused some of it as well. It's usually just a blood vessel bursting in one of the three veins in your spinal cord.

[00:05:19] Katherine: Wow. Did something prompt this or it just happened.

[00:05:26] James: They really don't know. They're called spontaneous for a reason. I've never gotten a true answer from a doctor and I don't think they'll ever be able to give me one, which is unfortunate and scary, but I was extremely healthy, leading up to it. It really made me open my eyes to us susceptible anyone is.

[00:05:45] Katherine: Can you walk us through that day and when it happened, what was that like?

[00:05:52] James: I was watching football, just finished up some homework and I felt like I had Mono going through the week leading up to it, you know, didn't feel great. My neck was kind of stiff and then I guess I had the blood vessel burst and then world went black and I, you know, woke up a day later in the ICU at Boulder Community Hospital. And they had no idea what had happened.

[00:06:19] Katherine: Oh my goodness. So were you with roommates? Did someone find you? Who got you to the hospital?

[00:06:30] James: My roommates were there, but I was left on the couch for 18 hours, found by my, at the time girlfriend, Kate. She came in and, uh, saved my life, made sure I got in the ambulance, all of that stuff.

[00:06:47] Katherine: Wow. Oh my goodness. That, that must have just been, well, one, you wouldn't have been conscious for that experience, it sounds like, but afterwards I feel like there would be a lot of emotions knowing what had happened and just trying to process that experience.

[00:07:10] James: Yeah. I mean, I was able to talk, I guess. I don't remember it, but I talked to my mom on the phone and I was able to talk to my girlfriend and I guess my arms are really cold. I asked her to, you know, rub my arms, but I have no recollection of it.

[00:07:27] Obviously there's a lot of emotions to being left by yourself for 18 hours when you know, people were there and that's kind of hard to overcome knowing that you could have died and there was something that could have been done to prevent the seriousness of your injury or the longevity of it. But at the end of the day, it is what it is.

[00:07:49] Katherine: Yeah, and then you had quite the road to recover. You made it to the hospital and then you had this journey to recovery and the doctors figuring out what was going on. What happened?

[00:08:02] James: They had no idea what was going on. It took them a day to really figure out that I couldn't move my legs. And once they found that out, they called a neuro stat on me and then realized that I had a spinal cord injury.

[00:08:18] So they sent me to Anschutz where I was at Anschutz for a month and a half in ICU. Then I was shipped off to Craig and was there for about four, five months and then was finally able to get home. The ICU was very tough. It was really hard. It was really hard on my body. Um, and you know, you don't know if you're gonna survive or not.

[00:08:46] It's definitely an interesting situation. Then getting to Craig I was in a bad state. I lost most of my body, but they really helped give me back and try and give me as independent as possible. I was able to get home and then that was kind of really when the real journey started mentally.

[00:09:03] Katherine: When you say the journey mentally started once you got home, in the hospital were you just in a place of, I don't even know if I'm gonna survive this, that you weren't able to move beyond that until you got home and there was a glimpse of surviving?

[00:09:23] James: No, I think it was more of the fact that I thought I was gonna recover from this in two, three months and be back to normal. Once that time passes, it, it starts to really set in and then going home, you're seeing a world that you've seen before, but it's completely different. At the hospital, you've never been there before. It's a new world and it really doesn't set in until you get home and get back to where you usually are in the world and realize that things may never be the same.

[00:09:57] Katherine: Yeah. So then there's a lot to process in that moment when it really hits you; I have a whole new life, a different way that I need to learn how to do things, right?

[00:10:10] James: Mm-hmm yeah. It's definitely difficult for sure and I'm still there. It never goes away. People have been injured for 20 years. It never goes away, but you learn how to deal with it and make it day by day.

[00:10:25] Katherine: Yeah. When you were in the hospital and you're going through the months of recovery, what was that process like to regain back your body in terms of therapy, in terms of the day to day mental strain? Did you see an arm come back or a finger come back? How was that process?

[00:10:49] James: I got my triceps back and I can wiggle some of my fingers. So it's definitely helped with being able to do stuff on my own, especially the triceps, but mentally it's exhausting. It's the hardest battle you can fight, cuz not only are you working really hard with your body, but it's also mentally grueling to come to terms with your injury as well as go to hours of therapy and try to get better all while dealing with a life changing injury is very difficult.

[00:11:23] Katherine: You come back home and then what does your day to day journey look like? You mentioned going to therapy. Give us a quick look at what are your waking hours filled with?

[00:11:36] James: When I got home it was a big goal of my parents and myself to get back into school. So that was kind of the first thing that we wanted to do. For neuro rehab, I started going to this place called New Ability. It's in Thornton. They're great. Top of the line in everything they do and they specialize in neuro rehab. So that really helped.

[00:11:57] At home, I have a whole home gym. I have bands and, um, an FES bike, a Pilates table, a lot of great stuff. So I'm able to do stuff at home and then I can go down to New Ability and do focused neuro rehab there.

[00:12:16] Katherine: And your family was a big support in you going back to school and being rehabilitated.

[00:12:23] James: Yes. My dad drove me every single day from Fort Collins to Boulder of my senior year of school so I could finish my degree, which was grueling for both of us, but much more him than me.

[00:12:37] My mom and sisters were very supportive, just helping me with anything I needed to accomplish my goals, which was really, really incredible.

[00:12:45] Katherine: That's so awesome. It is beautiful to have support like that and it sounds like it was a journey for the whole family.

[00:12:53] James: Yes. I mean, not just my nuclear family, my extended family on my mom and dad's sides really stepped up and helped me with everything I needed and was very kind doing so. I'm very thankful for my aunts and uncles, as well as cousins that were all there for me.

[00:13:09] Katherine: That is so fantastic. How does that affect the mental exhaustion or maybe the emotional exhaustion of the process? Did it ease any of that?

[00:13:21] James: It definitely eases some of that because you're trying to get better and you have a whole village behind you. So it's nice that you have support from everyone, but it also keeps you going and keeps you working hard because they believe in you and you don't wanna let them down.

[00:13:39] Katherine: Yeah. That's so beautiful. When we were chatting earlier, you told me a story of a Chinese farmer and that story impacted you. Can you share that story here?

[00:13:51] James: Yes, of course. So there's this Chinese farmer and one day his horse runs away. So all the people from the town go, wow, that's so horrible and he goes, maybe. So the next day his horse comes back and he brought five wild horses with him. And so all the people from the town go, wow, that's incredible. And he goes maybe.

[00:14:17] Well, the week passes and one of the new horses breaks his son's leg and all the towns people go, wow, that's so horrible. I'm so sorry. And he says maybe. And then the next week there's a war and they're drafting for the war, but his son can't get drafted because he has a broken leg and all the towns people come say, wow, that's so great. Congratulations! And he says, maybe. The moral of the story is you never really know how something will affect you during the moment that it's affecting you. You really have to wait to be able to look back on that experience and see how it changed your life trajectory and if it was a good or a bad experience.

[00:15:01] Katherine: I love that story, and being a C4 quadriplegic, how has your life changed? Is it a maybe? Is it a good? Is it a bad?

[00:15:11] James: It's a maybe right now. There's a lot of good and there's a lot of bad. My accident, it brought me to some really cool new people. I've made a lot of great friendships and relationships I wouldn't have made without being paralyzed. And the people that work in neuro rehab and spend time around people like myself, they're some of the best people I've ever met in my entire life, and I'm very lucky to have met them. It's given me some new perspective on life and you know, really what it's like to have the human experience because it's universal to some extent, and everyone goes through their pain, but at a young age, you really understand what life is really like. You're not living in a fairy tale anymore.

[00:16:04] Katherine: What are some of the things that you've learned? Because you are very young, you're at the beginning of your career, beginning of your adulthood and I imagine that you have some wisdom that many adults still have yet to learn.

[00:16:20] James: Yeah. I'd like to say I've learned some new things, but I think the best thing that you can do is live in today.

[00:16:31] You spend too much time focusing on tomorrow or your past, you're not actually living today, so you can't actually enjoy it. I've also learned that everyone has their insecurities and problems. Some people just wear it visually like I do. A lot of other people suffer in silence, but everyone suffers and the easier it is to understand that, the easier it is to make a connection with someone. Because although you can see my struggle doesn't mean that I can't see yours. I really appreciate people's flaws and imperfections, and I think that's something that we need to be more aware of and understand that everyone is going through their own battle.

[00:17:18] Katherine: Your disability is visible, as you said, and there are also invisible disabilities, but you're also alluding to something deeper, which is just maybe our imperfections or the pain that we all try to cover up through a smile or through saying our day's fine. We're good, right? So many people will just say, yeah, it's good and that's not what's actually going on. It sounds like you have the ability to perceive through that mask and have developed more empathy for what people are really experiencing as they go through life.

[00:17:54] James: Yeah. It's a beautiful thing to be completely honest. I wish people were more open with their insecurities because it's something that people like to tread around. A lot of people don't like to ask me how I was disabled or if I was born like this because they feel like they're gonna overstep a boundary. But I feel like as humans, we have an obligation to be more authentic with each other.

[00:18:16] Why wear a mask when that's not really who you are, because you will never be truly happy until you can be truly authentic to yourself, which is something I struggled with for a long time. Until my injury I always wanted to fit in or be someone else or be liked by someone else, but after my injury, I can finally say I'm truly and authentically me. And that really means a lot.

[00:18:42] Katherine: Internally, I feel like that's very healing because now you have cohesiveness between who you are outside and inside and who others think you to be and who you see yourself as. Obviously you can't control exactly how they perceive you, but there's more cohesion between the two rather than when people are wearing a mask. Uh, so I just, I love that that's where you're at in your life.

[00:19:12] James: Well, thank you.

[00:19:13] Katherine: Yeah. And I, if I may, would like to put you on the spot. We've been able to interact a bit. What masks or insecurities or filters do you see from me?

[00:19:26] James: That's a great question. There's something that definitely brought you to your career as working in disabilities and I'm assuming that had to do with some sort of pain or love coming from a personal experience that you dealt with that you either wished you could change or wanted to, and now you go into this and can actually make a real change.

[00:19:51] Katherine: That is super insightful. Uh, I had a very close friend who gained a disability and lost a lot of their basic functioning and through that experience, I was able to see how disabling our environments and our cultures and our mindsets can be, and that it's not the person.

[00:20:13] Things happen to people all the time. Even if you are quote unquote normal and able-bodied, we're still going to get old. And through that process, we lose some of our abilities to some certain degree.

[00:20:25] It taught me how we can actually change things to empower people and modify environments, so that way everyone has their full capabilities for what they're fully capable of doing. And then you touched on pain as well, and I'll just briefly dive into it.

[00:20:44] I think where my pain lies is seeing people who disempower themselves on an emotional and a mental level . They do behaviors that are counterproductive to them fulfilling their potential and that makes me really sad when I see that. Accessibility, I think is a way to advocate for people and foster a general attitude of empowerment. So you were spot on with that, James, thank you for going down that rabbit trail. I really appreciate it.

[00:21:17] James: Yeah, no that's incredible. And I thank you for all the incredible work that you do. It doesn't go unnoticed and it's extremely appreciated.

[00:21:26] Katherine: Well, I love getting to meet people and I've just had such a fun time interacting with you and getting to know your story. Let's continue with that. What are some of the barriers that you've encountered having this disability and also being in a wheelchair, when you're going out into the physical world, what are some of those barriers?

[00:21:48] James: The first barrier for me in the hospital is technology, learning how to relearn everything, but especially being able to use technology in my life and Craig has a great assistive technology program there. They have a great department. Shout out Laura at Assistive Technology in Craig. She helped me get back on a computer, um, get back playing video games, all that kind of stuff and then I was able to navigate technology.

[00:22:21] But then getting back out into the real world, there's a lot of things that people by law, they, it, it technically is accessible so they can get away with it, but it's really not, whether that be a ramp that they can get into, but it's way too steep and you can't get up it or a ramp, but it's slanted sideways and you can't get over one side because it's sunken in. Big bumps in the sidewalk are a big problem or even tilted angles.

[00:22:53] When you're in a chair driving up a 45 degree angle it's a little bit difficult and big, heavy, double doors with no handicap button, I've run into those even at doctor's offices.

[00:23:07] There's a lot of stuff you don't think about and you probably would never think about until you're in that position, but there's a lot of barriers out there that you have to overcome internally and externally.

[00:23:17] Katherine: Mm-hmm in terms of technology, you came up with the coolest video game hack. Can you tell us all about that?

[00:23:27] James: I wanted to play with a regular controller. They have adaptive controllers that go on your lap and stuff and that just wasn't me because I wanted to play video games the way I used to. So we started off with video game control and we put it on a mount with Velcro and some, uh, rubber bands and a lap tray. Figured, okay that was a start. So came together and figured we could do a car mount.

[00:23:56] So put the phone battery on the back of the remote and then mounted this phone holder and put the phone holder on a lap tray and the remote on that. So it allows me, even though I can't hold the controller because of my hand strength, it allows me to use it the same exact way, which was really awesome and to my knowledge, that's the first time that's been done. So I hope that helps a lot of other people.

[00:24:26] Katherine: That is so cool. I love that even though they already had a solution, you drew that boundary and said, no, I want this to be like I did it before and then worked with a team, came up with new ideas and hacked together a way to make it feel the same without having to rely on your own strength.

[00:24:47] It's fantastic. There's a lot of work that's being done in adaptive and assistive technology, but it's still fun to see that there's more room for us to grow and that people like yourself are finding new ways to make that happen.

[00:25:06] James: Yeah, no, it's been good. A lot of things aren't that accessible, but if you can find ways to do it better and easier, it not only helps people with my exact disability, but other people that are disabled. They're just maybe not even disabled, just want to do something in a more efficient, better way.

[00:25:25] Katherine: Mm-hmm yeah, exactly. There's so many things that are created for people with disabilities that end up helping other people as well in different scenarios. I know you've mentioned before you were at a Starbucks and you encountered a situation with the ramp. Could you share more about that?

[00:25:47] James: Yeah, there's this Starbucks and they don't have a ramp to get into the store. There's some steps, you go up and they have a ramp in the back that they use to bring their ingredients in that you can use. And it's in the back of the store. It's not advertised. There's also women and strollers that have to sit outside with their kid while someone else goes in because they can't make it up the stairs.

[00:26:08] Um, so they could benefit from using a ramp and the fact that it's not advertised is something that's problematic to everyone and moms aren't disabled with strollers or anything, and they want to take their children inside the Starbucks, but they just couldn't at that location because of the lack of knowledge from a ramp. So that's just a great example of how disabilities really affect everyone. Even those that aren't disabled, they could benefit from accessibility.

[00:26:39] Katherine: When I think about a ramp, to stick with that example, everyone can wheel and walk up a ramp, but stairs are more exclusionary.

[00:26:51] I don't make stairs. I don't design stairs. But when I think between the two, one seems more inclusive than the other. So the question becomes, well, why don't we just have ramps? I don't know the answer, but it seems like we could think through things differently and across the board, choose a more efficient option.

[00:27:12] James: Yeah. I mean, a lot of times stairs come into play with lack of space, just because ramps, they have to be a certain degree and they're hard to implement space wise, but there's definitely ways to make things more accessible and I'm sure hopefully someone can figure 'em out.

[00:27:32] Katherine: Yeah.

[00:27:33] James: If not me.

[00:27:33] Katherine: Yeah! It could be you. So what's the difference between adaptive technology and assistive technology?

[00:27:41] James: Adaptive technology is a like modifying technology for people with disabilities. Assistive technology is just something that it's kind of like a crutch relative to a wheelchair, if you can think about it that way. Adaptability would be a wheelchair, assistive would be like a crutch. People use voice software, that's assistive technology, but adaptive technology would be completely changing the way you use something.

[00:28:08] Completely redesigning a mouse would be adaptive technology, stuff that has to be changed to be used. Assistive technology is stuff that can assist you to do something more efficiently, like a better voice activation system. I know a lot of normal people use that. That's assistive because it's not drastically changing the way you use something.

[00:28:33] Katherine: Yep. That makes sense. You have a new adaptive technology for using your keyboard, could you share what the adaptive technology is?

[00:28:45] James: I didn't come up with it. They've been using it for long time, actually make it in house. It's this. It's a typing stick. Um, just kind of wrap it around my wrist and use it to type. It's basically a rubber ball at the end of a long stick in a handcuff and you just poke keys with it. At first it was a little slower, but now I can type just as fast if not faster than I could before. It's pretty intuitive and that's a great example of adaptive technology.

[00:29:19] Katherine: That adaptive technology supplements some of the hand strength that was lost. Let's say that you gained that hand strength back, in terms of jumping from this technology to using your hands, would there be a step in between, or could you go from this adaptive technology back to using hands?

[00:29:42] James: Yeah, I mean, if my hands were strong enough and I had the function to use it, it would be a pretty easy transition back to it. That's what's great about it is it's not putting me in a box to never be able to use my hands again. It's just helping me in the time being.

[00:29:59] Katherine: The reason why I asked that is because I was curious if there are a bunch of transitional phases in between, or if the spectrum's not that wide and there are only a couple of tools that may be needed or a couple of phases in recovering back that full strength.

[00:30:20] James: It depends on the task. Really. Something like walking would take a lot of intermediary steps to get there. There's so many things that go into walking that you don't think about normally cause you just do it, but there's so many tiny little muscles that you have to have fire and function and everything to get back to walking, but for typing would be a smaller spectrum relative to the task.

[00:30:44] Katherine: Mm-hmm mm-hmm That makes sense. So we're gonna transition a little bit and look more forward facing to you and your career and just the future of business in general. I know that's a big interest of yours. What do you hope, if anything, that businesses do to improve the world for people with disabilities in, let's say the next five years.

[00:31:15] James: In the next five years, I think it would be very advantageous for businesses to try and hire disability advocates or people in their organization to help with disability and make sure that everyone in the organization that has a disability is comfortable with everything that's going on, as well as just being someone to talk to that understands what they're going through or what challenges they might have that they don't wanna bring to a supervisor. Kind of like an HR department for people with disabilities would be great.

[00:31:52] I think I would like to see more donations made from big corporations to stuff that promotes recovery or trials that have real promise to give people a much better life. That would be really cool to see organizations taking interest in that.

[00:32:11] I just would love to see a more inclusive society that wants to help people that aren't the same. It could be anything from funding mental health research and depression, to spinal cord research, all that kind of stuff would be great to see.

[00:32:29] Love to see a disabled person in a high executive position more often. That would be great. And that's kind of the goal that I'm moving towards, but overall, just a more inclusive environment for everyone, not just people with disabilities.

[00:32:48] Katherine: Yeah. I agree with that. I think that's something that you are working on as you share your story and then that's something I'm passionate about as well.

[00:32:59] I love the idea of having that representation in executive positions and there may be people who are already in those positions, but you definitely don't see it. It's important to see people like ourselves so that way we know, okay, someone else could do it, this path is open for me. It can be exhausting if you don't see anyone else and you think that you're forging something that's totally new.

[00:33:25] James: Yes. Very true.

[00:33:26] Katherine: You mentioned that your goal is to become a person in an executive position, or you are working your way in that direction. What are your goals? What do you wanna do?

[00:33:39] James: I wanna make an impact in my personal life and the world as well, in any way I can. At the end of your life, in my opinion, you get a stone to throw into a pond. The more effective you were at making an impact with people, you get a bigger stone to throw because your ripples will go farther. And I think that's kind of a beautiful thing. That's what I would like to do.

[00:34:03] I would like to also work at a high level in business as a C-suite executive or a general manager of an NFL team. That's my goals right now, and goals are great. They always change, but you just have to be working towards a few at the same time.

[00:34:21] Katherine: I absolutely love your imagery that you get a stone to toss into the pond and the more impact and influence and good that you've done the bigger the stone is. I am going to use that everywhere. Like that is so amazing. I love it.

[00:34:40] James: Good. I'm glad. I love it too. It's what I feel like the first thing at the end of life is like, or looking back on it. How big of a stone did I get to throw?

[00:34:50] Katherine: Yeah, that is so cool. I'm gonna have to digest that more, even post this recording, because I really appreciate that.

[00:35:00] What about the executive positions are calling to you? A lot of people want them for the money and for the power and that's okay. I have a feeling that it's something else that draws you to that particular position.

[00:35:16] James: I think it's more the impact and the influence you can have. As a C-suite executive, I can make sure that company culture is great. And I also want to be one of those people that you can approach and come to at any level because every employee should be valued the same. I think that a lot of executives, they don't feel that way and they don't treat their employees that way.

[00:35:39] But I think just like a team, one bad apple can ruin in the bunch and I think same thing with a company. You can be a great company, but if there's a negative company culture and it's toxic, you're just as bad as the bottom tier competitors in your industry. So I think that's something that I could have a positive impact on.

[00:36:02] And I think, well I hope to see that in the future with every company that they really working on company culture and providing resources to their employees.

[00:36:13] Katherine: How do you define a good company culture?

[00:36:16] James: I think a good company culture means that people wanna come to work and they enjoy working. And I 110% believe it's a lie that, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. Every job is gonna have some degree of difficulty and everything in life is gonna have some degree of difficulty.

[00:36:37] There is no relationship, job situation that's perfect. Everything takes some work, but for the most part, you should be feeling safe, valued, and have a open line of communication with your superiors and subordinates, as well as your peers. I think it's really important to have openness and transparency as well as also having the resources you need to take care of your health and your livelihood.

[00:37:06] Katherine: What I'm hearing you say is humanizing everyone, removing the hierarchy in terms of the demeaning of people or putting people on a pedestal. Someone's greater or bigger or better than someone else.

[00:37:23] At the end of the day, we're just people. We are people and we eat and we sleep and we have relationships and we sometimes like our jobs and sometimes we don't and if we can remember that we are humans and look at everyone as a human and relate to them from that perspective, you're able to remove some of those barriers.

[00:37:48] Now you can reach out to anyone. You can communicate with anyone. You can brainstorm and provide feedback with anyone and it's only when we have those barriers that we cut ourselves off from understanding what people need, from great ideas, from innovating and working together and solving problems in ways that work for most, if not all people.

[00:38:13] James: Yes, I agree. I read this book called 12 and a Half. It's by Gary Vaynerchuck and he talks about his half being kind candor.

[00:38:23] As a leader, what I love that he said is you have to take the fear out of leadership. There will always be leadership. There'll always be bad news. Everyone has to be accountable for their actions and it has to be set to a certain standard of excellence, but if you take the fear out of leadership, you can accomplish so much more.

[00:38:45] There shouldn't be a fear of your higher ups, but they will have to hand you bad news and people sometimes get let go, and that's hard, but there should never be a fear that if you make a decision wrong, that you will ruin your career. And as the higher up you shouldn't be looking to ruin anyone's career for a simple mistake.

[00:39:07] Katherine: Yeah, I so agree. I think our culture used to run on the idea that fear leads to power, power leads to strength. If you're strong, then you are in control and a good leader. You're good at what you do, especially in an executive position, but I don't think that's actually true. I think strength comes from being empathetic, being compassionate, being gentle, being able to hold people accountable and responsible for what they did or what you collectively did.

[00:39:39] That takes so much more confidence and knowing that you are enough, regardless of what happens, than someone who is coming from a fear perspective. So thank you for calling that out.

[00:39:53] James: Yeah, of course. I mean, I think emotional intelligence is the most important skill and the better you can understand other people, the better you can understand yourself.

[00:40:02] Katherine: It seems like acquiring this disability has taught you even more things about emotional intelligence.

[00:40:11] James: 110%. You have to really learn yourself in order to overcome and accept who you are and realize that you're not physical. Who you are is not physical. It's not mental. It's just who you are as a person. A lot of times it's impossible to accept because people label traits as themselves. Oh, well, I'm tall. That's who I am.

[00:40:39] Well, you know, I used to be tall and now I'm sitting in a chair all the time, so that wasn't who I was. That's who I thought I was, but that's not who I truly was.

[00:40:48] Katherine: A person constructs an identity around themselves and then when you acquire a disability or just through the process of going through life, but for you acquiring a disability shook up some of those identities and allowed you to open up to what you thought you were is not who you actually are.

[00:41:07] And not just in the sense of, oh, I was tall, well, now I'm short, but oh, I thought my tallness defined me and made me, me. No, I can be tall or I can be short. That's separate from me being me.

[00:41:22] James: Exactly.

[00:41:23] Katherine: That's liberating!

[00:41:24] James: Yeah. I mean, it, it definitely, it definitely helps, but it's a hard process to get there.

[00:41:31] Everyone in the world should look internally, but a lot of times they're never forced to, and they don't have to but I think it's something, if you wanna be the best person that you can be, you should strive to look inwards and figure out who you actually are. What are your passions? What do you love doing?

[00:41:46] Katherine: So you mentioned a lot of people aren't forced to and so they don't. It is sad in many ways that we have to experience something that pushes our hand, kind of forces our hand to look. And even then we can choose not to.

[00:42:02] You went through an experience that put you in a situation where you looked within. Knowing who you were before and how you were operating your life and now having looked more within, had more time to reflect, what do you think stops people from doing that until they have an incident that really pushes them to look within?

[00:42:28] James: Humans just generally in nature, they love to live in a comfort zone. That's why things go bad and it changes us because people, in their purest form wanna be comfortable and stay in a comfort zone.

[00:42:40] That's why you see people that have high volumes of excellence in whatever they do, whether it be playing table tennis or a professional athlete, the people that really achieve growth push themselves to be uncomfortable.

[00:42:57] If you can thrive in being uncomfortable and always seek that position, you can invoke change in yourself. It's really hard to do, but if you can put yourself in an uncomfortable situation, you can really grow.

[00:43:11] It's really hard to do personally, but when you're thrown into a situation like getting a disability or losing a parent or losing a loved one, or even ending a relationship, whether it be a friendship or a romantic one, all those things invoke change because it puts us an uncomfortable situation.

[00:43:36] If people could strive to be more uncomfortable, they would gain a lot more progress in their emotional intelligence, as well as their intellect and life experiences.

[00:43:50] Katherine: The discomfort you experience now, how much, if any, comes from your process of recovery and having the disability versus you now seeking out the discomfort because of the value that it brings.

[00:44:09] James: I think everything at first was overwhelming and then it took like a shock phase for me to really realize what was going on. That change really provided a lot of insight into just life and how people are. Now I think growing, going forward is pushing myself to do things that I haven't ever done or haven't done since my accident and trying to really be uncomfortable so that I can grow and be a person that I wanna be instead of having some other construct, define me and change my life. I am disabled, but that's not who I am. That's just a trait. Just like being tall is.

[00:44:55] Katherine: Did this experience ever make you angry?

[00:44:59] James: Yeah. All the time. All the time. It's, it's a natural emotion of grief and my body died. So I had to grieve my own death, my old life. I had to grieve all of that. My old relationships that didn't work out. I had to grieve everything at the same time. So anger comes with a lot of that. Are there things I should have done differently? Yeah. Are there things I wish other people did differently? Yeah. Are there people that I wish were more there for me than they were? Yes.

[00:45:33] A lot of that provides a lot of sense of anger and anger is a very consuming emotion. It really is. But, um, you really have to give yourself grace and feel every emotion you can. I think a lot of people, especially men like to suppress their emotions, but I think you have to feel everything to really understand what's going on. And anger is one of those emotions. As long as it's not taken out on someone else, it can be a really helpful healer.

[00:46:08] Katherine: What's your process of feeling everything? What does that look like?

[00:46:14] James: You know, well, if you're angry today, be angry today but don't be angry tomorrow. Feel the emotion, but don't let it consume you, but don't suppress it.

[00:46:24] If you're angry, be angry. Take out your anger, not on someone else, but find something to do that will make you less angry and then tomorrow you may be really sad. Be really sad. Don't mask it. Don't try and hide it. Go through the emotions because that's the only proper way to heal. You can't heal if you never feel anything.

[00:46:44] It's just like having a cut on your arm. If you don't properly take care of it, you'd never gonna heal. If you don't let it have time, air, medicine, bandaid, protection, it's not gonna heal. Your heart and your soul's the same way.

[00:46:59] Katherine: When you are sitting in whatever you're feeling, whether it be anger or sadness or joy and those around you aren't feeling the same kind of joy because they're in a different stage of their grieving process, do you have boundaries that you draw? Do you have communication or things that you say? How do you handle that in relation to others and what they're feeling?

[00:47:28] James: Um, it's a great question. My dad always has this thing. He talks about hills and valleys in life. Sometimes you're on a hill, sometimes you're in the valley, but everyone's life is full of all of them.

[00:47:43] I think emotion is extremely contagious. If you're feeling bad and angry, you can bring down everyone else around you, but if you're happy and loving, you can bring up everyone's emotion around you. It's the saying that high tide raises all ships.

[00:48:02] I think if you're feeling up and you're happy and someone else is feeling sad, the best thing you can do is just let them know that you're here for them and that their emotions are valid and what they're feeling, everyone feels, and that doesn't make 'em less of a person. They shouldn't be sad forever, but they should feel the emotions in that moment.

[00:48:27] You gotta understand that you're living in the present. So what you're feeling right now is what you're feeling and don't invalidate that and say that you should be a certain way because that's not how it works, but the self-awareness of knowing that if it's bad, it'll get better. And if it's happy, what can I do to bring someone out of a bad situation?

[00:48:51] Katherine: Thank you for sharing that, James, I resonate a lot with the idea of hills and valleys one in the way that you explained it and two, I think in general, when we're on top of that hill or on top of that mountain, that's when we tend to broadcast our life.

[00:49:09] And when we're in the valleys, we hide that from other people, but that's where the learning happens. That's where the healing and the growth happens. Part of my journey is showing more of the valleys. I have a newsletter that's called Life in the Valley and a lot of people think it's because I live in Silicon Valley and yes, but it's also talking about the ugly parts, the messy parts, the real parts, the raw parts of life and career, because we are so conditioned to hide those and we think that success is showing only our successes.

[00:49:47] James: Yeah. You see that with social media all the time. No, one's gonna post how bad they're feeling today. It's only gonna be good highlights, but if people live and die by social media, then you always feel unhappy.

[00:49:59] Cause people don't actually live these great lives. They want you to think that they do, but, but it's not true. It's a facade. I think that more people should welcome the fact that we shouldn't put a taboo on the authentic human experience. When you're feeling down, it shouldn't be a taboo thing.

[00:50:20] You don't need to broadcast it, but you shouldn't feel any less of a person because you're not on top of a hill right now. You're in the valley. If you're on top of a mountain looking down in a valley, they're both beautiful.

[00:50:34] Katherine: They're just different views. I love that. They are both beautiful. Sticking with this analogy, you have some mountains to climb coming up as you're searching for jobs. What has that experience been like?

[00:50:51] James: It's very similar to what everyone else would go through. I like to be really upfront about my disability. It's not something I'm ashamed of.

[00:50:59] Sometimes you're having a conversation and you share it and the whole vibe of the conversation changes and it's hurtful, but I appreciate it too, because it's not somewhere I want to be. If this is gonna affect anything, I don't want to be here.

[00:51:16] It hurts, and you, you linger about it for a good, you know, 30 seconds and it's like, all right, whatever, I don't wanna be here. Let's move on. It's hard to find a great company I think for everyone and it's hard to find a mutually beneficial relationship where you wanna be and you feel wanted.

[00:51:34] I think being disabled maybe realize that your time is extremely finite, so you don't wanna spend it being miserable for a paycheck.

[00:51:43] Katherine: There are so many people who will do just that. They will be miserable just for a paycheck. It is very cool to see that that's not your perspective and you are at the beginning of your career. So starting out from that place already puts you in a really good position, a good mindset to have a beautiful journey. It means there's less healing that you have to do. A lot of people will walk down that path of okay, I'm gonna pick this job because of the money, because of this or that.

[00:52:20] And then either they never realize how miserable they are or something hard has to hit them for them to realize I don't have to do this. So I love that you're already drawing boundaries. You're already thinking about what culture do you wanna be a part of? If whoever you're interviewing with, the company you're applying to is uncomfortable, that's on them.

[00:52:42] That's not something that's personal to you and you are undoing and breaking down the misnomer that people with disabilities aren't talented.

[00:52:56] There's some weird thought that if you have a disability, that affects your talent. And to me, that is the most confusing thing ever because just because someone can't see or can't hear or is sitting in a chair or has some cognitive impairment doesn't mean that you couldn't do a job, right?

[00:53:18] Doesn't mean that you're not a leader. Doesn't mean that you can't contribute or build or have ideas, and actually it's the opposite. In many ways they have innovative ideas. People with disabilities are able to figure out things that other people can't. Your video game console is an example of just that.

[00:53:39] I really appreciate where you're starting out because that is going to launch you in the most beautiful direction and I'm just so excited to see how that pans out.

[00:53:51] James: Yeah, me too. I'm excited and I think I'm a lot hungrier than a lot of the candidates because it's like, you have all these advantages, but I'm still gonna win, whatever it takes.

[00:54:01] I want it more than you do because I have these disadvantages, but I just want to be better and because I can be. I wanna overcome those and I feel like a lot of people with disabilities do. And they bring a lot of insight and perspective to a lot of different things.

[00:54:21] Katherine: What are things companies should be thinking about if they truly want to hire people with disabilities?

[00:54:28] James: What does this person's differentiated skillset bring to our company? What value drivers does it have? Which is an extremely important thing when hiring anybody, but what can this person bring whether it be perspective or anything that other candidates can't because you know a lot of the human experience is the same, but someone with disabilities has a completely different view of the world and how it works and how everything functions.

[00:54:59] In business, they're always looking for ways to be more efficient and disabled people thrive in inefficiency because there has to be an easier way to do something. I think that can be brought to every company that hires disabled people. I think they should also be looking at, you know, the, the actual person, regardless of their disability.

[00:55:26] Katherine: When you go to interview for a company, are there certain signs that you see right off the bat, or once you're deeper into the interview that indicate whether or not that company is accepting and inviting and welcoming of people with disabilities?

[00:55:44] James: Usually they're excited about what you do in the community with disabilities. It's not something that they're like, oh, okay. You know, you get the oh, okay. You can really read people and understand how they feel about it.

[00:55:59] Katherine: So it seems like being able to sense the body language and the, the tone, the excitement, or lack thereof from the people you're interviewing with.

[00:56:09] James: Yeah. And that's a big deal. It's usually the excitement, just the way they respond to that information.

[00:56:16] Katherine: If anyone wants to advocate for people with disabilities, what are some things they should be thinking about?

[00:56:24] James: Accessibility. What's the best way we can do this for everyone. Just keeping everyone in mind, not just themselves and their own personal experiences, but really thinking, can I get a different perspective on this? Can I get a better perspective on this and how can I be more inclusive? I think that's a, a big thing that they could do.

[00:56:46] They could also think about what advantages does this person give me that other people don't instead of looking at what disadvantages are this disability going to cause in my company.

[00:57:00] Katherine: Another aspect of this I wanna touch on is disclosure and disclosure from the candidate side and the employer side. If you're a candidate with a disability who is wanting to apply to a company, how important is it that they disclose that they are interested in looking for people with disabilities?

[00:57:23] James: I think I've seen some companies that have like a page on their application about, you know, we're an equal opportunity employee or whatnot. I'm sure they have to have that by law, but, um, I'm not sure. That's a great question because I don't want to be thought of differently than any other candidate. I don't think anyone with a disability wants to.

[00:57:45] People with mental disabilities, whether it be depression or whatnot, I don't think they want to be thought of in any different way. I just think if they had something like disability hiring matters to us in their job application or on their homepage or somewhere on their website or having like a person that we talked about, like HR rep for people with disabilities goes a long way. It really does. And it doesn't go unnoticed.

[00:58:13] Katherine: And from the other side, people have a lot of mixed feelings around disclosing that they are a person with a disability. What are your thoughts on disclosure?

[00:58:24] James: I respect both ways. I personally, I like to disclose mine because I don't want there to be any blurred lines. I want you to take me as I am. I wanna be me. I wanna be authentic to who I am as a person. And I want you to know that straight from the jump. Honesty and transparency drive corporations, and that's what is really a keystone of success.

[00:58:53] Katherine: Yeah. So respecting both perspectives, but for you personally, transparency and authenticity is the route that you've chosen.

[00:59:03] James: It's the route I've chosen, but I also really understand people not wanting to disclose their disabilities because it's completely fair and they're entitled to that.

[00:59:11] And I, I really appreciate that because there's both sides. I think it should be done both ways. There shouldn't be a surprise that should affect the outcome of your position whether it be good or bad.

[00:59:24] Katherine: Yeah, just overall inclusion, whether you choose to share it or not that people are hiring you because of you. And if they learn more about you in the process that it doesn't change what they've decided on in the first place.

[00:59:41] James: Exactly. It should affirm their decision rather than deter it.

[00:59:46] Katherine: Yeah. I agree with that and I think that goes for any aspect of a person, whether it be physical or cognitive abilities or their perspectives on certain things or their history or their family or social ties. I mean, we could go through all different aspects. We have to have hiring practices that are able to cut to the core of who someone is, see them for the quality being that they are, bring them on and then have enough allowance, and tolerance, and emotional intelligence, back to what you were talking about, for when we have moments where there are disagreements, or there seems to be a misalignment that we can work through that with grace rather than say, oh, well, we didn't know about that. Now you're no longer okay. Goodbye. Let's walk you out the front door.

[01:00:37] James: Yeah. It's something that will be prevalent in the future and I hope we see some progress there.

[01:00:43] Katherine: Yeah, me too. I know this is something that's a passion for you. How do you wanna integrate accessibility into your career?

[01:00:51] James: I think first and foremost would be, let's make things easier for everybody cause the accessibility affects everyone, whether they like it or not. We're preparing ourselves for future generations as well as future versions of ourself that we might not know. It could happen to anyone. You always want to be on the side of helping rather than hurting, because you might end up on the side of needing the help and you wanna think about that before you get there.

[01:01:27] I think that's first and foremost. I also think that really being able to start a dialogue with everyone. Let's open the book on it. Let's not tap around it. Let's talk about it and let's figure out how can we get a different viewpoint?

[01:01:42] How can we get everyone's viewpoint on accessibility. Whether that be outside information, open source stuff, or everyone throughout the company. How can we make things better, more efficient for you? Is there stuff that troubles you in any certain way that we can work on? Having those checkpoints and having that check in with all levels of the company is important for the success of the overall firm.

[01:02:09] Katherine: There's a phrase in the accessibility disability community that says nothing about us without us, which communicates if you're going to create something that's accessible or that's for people with disabilities, make sure you have someone with a disability in that room. And obviously one person with one type of disability is not a representative of all the different types of disabilities. You need diversity and you need a variety, and even still that variety is not going to cover everyone.

[01:02:39] If you are in the room, how can they start a conversation with you?

[01:02:43] James: Personally, I'd like to start the dialogue and then open it up. What, what do you wanna know? How can I make this more comfortable for you? What can I do? And what can we do to figure this out? And how can I help?

[01:02:56] But also in order to make a connection, you have to offer some kind of vulnerability and authenticity as a person. I think if everyone's willing to give that we can make real progress.

[01:03:10] Katherine: Looking back on all you've learned, all you've been through, and before you head into that next phase, is there something you'd like to take with you? Is there something that you would've told your younger self, knowing what you know now

[01:03:28] James: Be true to yourself. Really! I wasn't for such a long time. I mean, most of college wasn't who I really was because, you know, I wanted to fit in. I wanted to make new friends and fell in with the wrong crowd, I'd say. But, uh, I met some really great people. That's not to say that, but you know, a lot of friends that I had in that life, I didn't take to my next one cause that wasn't authentically me.

[01:03:54] I think that would be the one thing is be who you wanna be. Everything else will follow, but if you hate who you are, you'll never be happy. And that was probably one thing I also tell my younger self is to do everything, say no to very little opportunities. Do and try everything and chase your passions and realize that everything will change. Everything will change. It's how you adapt to it that really affects the outcome of your life.

[01:04:31] Katherine: So good. James, what's one question you wish people would ask you?

[01:04:39] James: Why are you the way you are? What happened? What's your situation? How is it going? But really what, what brought you here today? How does that affect your life?

[01:04:54] Katherine: Is there anything else that you'd like to share with listeners?

[01:04:59] James: I'd like to give a shout out to a few people. My father, Andrew. My mom, Margaret. Sister, Emma. Sister, Addison. My aunts and uncles on both sides. I like to shout out my best friend, Kate. My best friend, Anthony. Best friend, Dave. All those guys were there, really supportive of me and very thankful for them. Thankful for the new friends that I've made along the way that have been there for me, especially recently. It's been great.

[01:05:25] And thank you, Katherine. I really appreciate it. You've been a huge advocate for me and I appreciate you letting me tell my story and you know what I've learned because I hope if nothing, it can affect just one person, if not multiple, but at least just one.

[01:05:40] Katherine: Thank you, James. Thank you for being here and I can confidently say you and your story have greatly affected me. Thank you for your time, all of your wisdom. And thank you to everyone who is listening to this episode of Opportunity Made.

[01:05:56] If anyone knows of anyone who would be interested in being on this podcast, you can always reach out on social media. If you have learned something or want to share an accessibility tip, go ahead and do so @OpportunityMade. Let's continue to build a world that works for everyone.

[01:06:15] If people wanna continue the conversation with you, James, how can they connect?

[01:06:20] James: I'm on LinkedIn, James Campbell on LinkedIn. You can also shoot an email at: colojcampbell@gmail.com.

[01:06:33] Connect and message me on LinkedIn's probably the best way, but shoot me an email if you don't have LinkedIn. I'm always happy to talk and meet new people.

[01:06:42] Katherine: Awesome! I hope that people reach out because, as I think we both know, opportunities happen when we say yes. So we have to take that initiative. We have to invest in ourselves and reach out to others. We're all human so no need to be scared. We have this opportunity. Let's take advantage of that. With that, thank you all for being here. Serve widely, give greatly and take care y'all!